“Yes, that is so,” replied Bhagavan. “In the Vasudeva Mananam and in other books, it is stated that one has to gain conceptual realization (paroksha jnana) with the help of a Guru by the act of hearing (sravana) and musing (manana), and then gain knowledge of ‘intuitive experience (aparoksha)’ by spiritual practice, and by consequent complete maturity of the mind. It is stated in the Vicharasagara: ‘Intuitive experience (aparoksha) is always present; the only obstacle is conceptual knowledge (paroksha)’. Spiritual practice (sadhana) is required to remove the obstacle; there is no question of attaining intuitive experience. It is all the same — hearing and the like, are necessary whether it is to know the intuitive, or to remove the obstacles. Those who are able to overcome the three-faced obstacles are likened to the naked light in a windless place, or to the ocean in a waveless state; both are true. When one feels the Self within one’s body, it is like the naked light in a windless place; when one feels that the Self is all-pervading, it is like the waveless ocean.”